#SMART: jaycee
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jaycee: good morning!
[tee]: Hi John!
jaycee: Our times were mixed up...
[tee]: You haven'tid they?
jaycee: I got new times from Tapio when I pulled myself out of bed this morning at 0630
jaycee: You told me 1600 finnish time yeseterday when I was going to bed
jaycee: any way, here I am, the sun coming up over the high desert here
jaycee: You are at home, right? Or at MUU?
*** Signoff: [tee] (Homer/TCP was here!)
jaycee: this is also a slow connection
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murph: Hi John
jaycee: you are using Homer, old unstable Homer...well, howdy!
murph: I'm using IRCle
jaycee: no, not you, I was talking to Terhi...
murph: She's not here
jaycee: from before when she was on
jaycee: right
murph: lag
jaycee: it is 0730
jaycee: and I got up at 0630
murph: It's 9:30 here
jaycee: for these guys
murph: Farmer
jaycee: to find they had changed the time when I was sleeping...
jaycee: farming in the desert
murph: I wish I was on a boat
murph: sailing
jaycee: you're hacking early on a saturday...
murph: I get up early
jaycee: They are on a huge ferry in Stockholm
murph: I saw the pictures. Looks like fun.
jaycee: This is a pretty fast connection, though
murph: Yes, though I had problems getting on
jaycee: Yeah, I took that ferry last summer... full of drunken Swedish teenagers
jaycee: you are on through funet.fi?
murph: Yes
jaycee: I like that interface, but incredibly slow...
jaycee: probably around scandinavia it is okay, but to here, forget it...
jaycee: What's this about you losing your home?
murph: No money coming in
jaycee: ouch! I hear that one...
murph: Can't pay the rent (you must pay the rent!) But I can't pay the rent...
jaycee: it is a stupid rule!
murph: My landlord lives in the building so I can't avoid confrontation
jaycee: ouch!
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jaycee: Keel ma lanlord!
murph: They want me to leave so they can double the rent
jaycee: right, a NYC story
jaycee: Hey newbie, is that you Terhi?
Newbie: Hi John and Robin.
murph: Hi, is this Terhi?
jaycee: Newbie is such a funny name...
Newbie: Yes I am
murph: I prefer it to Oldie
Newbie: I was so busy to connect you that I didn't care for nick
jaycee: so you found a copy of IRCle on the computer you are using?
murph: Is everyone on ship drunk yet?
jaycee: so, are you in Helsinki Harbor on the Symphony?
Newbie: No I didn't but on an other Mac was Homer ok
Newbie: Yes in Habor and this place is BEAUTIFUL
jaycee: I think they have been drunk for days already -- a bunch of Northern Europeans drinking and getting paid for ART
Newbie: On the Deck of luxory cruising Boat
jaycee: It does not surprise me...
murph: I like it
jaycee: That's why I go to Scandinavia -- to get drunk and get paid for ART
jaycee: Sounds decadent
Newbie: People seem not to be drunken, but this is Vip Lounge, so I don't know what is going on on boat...
jaycee: but is actually highly evolved society
jaycee: Is the Finnish Tango band playing yet?
murph: No one here drinks anymore. They're all in rehab
jaycee: glug glug glug
Newbie: John, I don't agree that "...paid in.."
jaycee: So, Terhi, Tapio makes our dialogue sound so IMPORTANT! He's getting paid...
jaycee: or drunk maybe
Newbie: Not all finnish artists get paid for their work, only the famous ones
murph: They get paid for their fame, just like here.
Newbie: Isn't it important? This dialogue?
jaycee: not paid for work, I am talking about getting paid to get drunk...
jaycee: that's better, -- work is only a detail
jaycee: All dialogues are important...
Newbie: getting paid to get drunk.. ..??? never heard...
murph: I think we are demonstrating the theme of this dialogue (trialogue?)
jaycee: right!
jaycee: I always sound like this when I get up too early...
Newbie: Trialogue.
Newbie: How early John?
jaycee: 0630
jaycee: after a late night
Newbie: So you are on bad mood, John?
jaycee: excuse me I have to go blow my nose
jaycee: no not really, just waking up
Newbie: Our topic is ART, NET & DIALOGUE, ISN'T IT
Newbie: Sorry, I didn't ment to scream.
jaycee: still blowing my nose, I didn't hear you scream...
murph: I find the PORT dialogues very interesting
Newbie: Robin and John, tell me about Eight Dialogues. How do you feel about it?
Newbie: In what way Robin?
jaycee: uh, at least for PORT, I don't/didn't have to get up early...
jaycee: ;)
murph: They are like eavesdropping
Newbie: You mean listening?
murph: And like the Art Dirt conversations we have ever week
jaycee: Well, I'm happy to hear you say that, Robbin, although I still have no real position/ideology about the project
murph: It's how art gets done
murph: And people are rarely allowed to listen in.
jaycee: wow, I just saw a fly come crawling groggily out of a very small hole in the wall...
murph: It fits with the concept of Conceptual Art in many ways
jaycee: excuse me, I am not awake yet
murph: and extends the concept way past what Joseph Kosuth imagined
jaycee: Adrianne called my dinner series for BLAST evidence of Outsider Art...
murph: I'm on a campaign to squash the term "Outsider Art"
murph: It's a marketing concept here
jaycee: II don't really like it either
Newbie: In Eight Dialoges for me as an audience it has been confusing that it is dialogue.
jaycee: Yes,I gathered that, a way to snag attention
jaycee: Why confusing, terhi?
Newbie: When the medium is made to be used is groups...
murph: Remo didn't get it at first but he's gotten used to tuning in every week and watching the text scroll by.
Newbie: Not just two dimendional.
Newbie: dimensional. Between two persons.
jaycee: Well, yes, it is based on a network, but so is the telephone
jaycee: I think the dynamics of communication offers certain things, depending on the number of people involved
Newbie: I see telephony more for dialogue and IRC channels when they are not private for bigger group of people
jaycee: well, good reason to use IRC for dialogue, then, really... In a way demonstrating that it can be used for more than college beach-babble
murph: Are you aware that others are reading what you write?
jaycee: aware, perhaps, but not conscious of...
murph: Sometimes it feels like there is a protective shell around the dialogues, to protect them
jaycee: like, occasionally I get a funny feeling after the fact, hopeing I have not said something that conflicts with something else I have said previously
Newbie: My session on Eight Dialogues has not yetbeen. But I have been as an audiense there.
jaycee: well, I probably project a shell, for sure...
murph: The words go by so fast. What you say eventually disappears (but not really.
murph: Like life
jaycee: In the form of conceenrtration on the Other
Newbie: So I ment that I felt like wanting to take part on conversation, but I coudn't because it was ment for two persons.
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jaycee: Of course there have been the ocasions when someone else joins -- for example now
Newbie: Oh no, I am afraid this boat is leaving soon. I shoild leave. I don't want to go in Sveden...
jaycee: and I have to fight with my sense of Order
murph: I do, I do...
murph: Remo always starts talking about private things in chat, he forgets they are public.
jaycee: to stay concentrated on the Other, but feeling a bit bad that the third party is left Outside... and not knowing what is going on...
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jaycee: right, Leslee saved the log when she and he were waiting for me...
murph: I feel like an anthropologist watching another culture communicate (In English of course)
jaycee: I don't want to post it -- I have to send it to him to see if it is okay...
Newbie: Oh, I am sorry I have to leave now ... I will leave this open, so there may come someone else..BYE
murph: bye
jaycee: see you terhi
jaycee: I'll talk by email...
Newbie: SEE U both next wednesday?
jaycee: right
murph: OK
Newbie: Fine, BYE!
jaycee: I didn't think the boat left so early inthe afternoon
jaycee: for Stockholm
murph: We experimented with a voice chat using OnLive last week. It's a different environment altogether.
jaycee: it is like ham radio, isn't it?
jaycee: or a CB?
murph: It uses avatars so you feel a presence
jaycee: Oh, so it works through a browser or stand alone?
murph: And sound is directional. It fades as you move away
murph: It's a proprietary plug-in
jaycee: well, this stuff changes so fast... I am getting tired of keeping up
murph: Only PC
murph: Me too, I'm painting again
jaycee: and I am still running on thi old powerbook
Newbie: Hello John and Robin, this is Tapio online instead of Terhi
murph: Hi
jaycee: I have been printing in my dad's darkroom a lot in the last month
jaycee: HeiHei Tapio!
jaycee: kiipis!
Newbie: Terhi left to avoid becoming a free passanger....
jaycee: (I'm having orange juice...
murph: I'd like to be on board going to Sweden.
jaycee: I heard that Kati stayed and slept on your cabin floor on the last sailing...
Newbie: So you think, ferry life is not so easy....
Newbie: The air is so dry that nose is falling off
Newbie: but working here + the people is an interesting mix
murph: I took the ferry from Patras to Brindisi a few years ago. That would be fun.
Newbie: Yess, Kati was here
jaycee: (Robbin, this is Tapio Makele, the almost former director of MUU arts association in Helsinki -- where I have been doing some workshops -- MUUMediaLab
jaycee: Makela, sorry
Newbie: In Finnish we call a freebie "A Rabbit"
murph: If the rabbit dies it means you are pregnant
jaycee: Tapio, Robbin is one of the principles of artnetweb in NYC, and a facilitator on the PORt MIT project
jaycee: so much for introductions
Newbie: John, thanks for the introduction.
Newbie: So our interface did not work for the U.S; it was really fast earlier.
jaycee: I never got a rabbit in Finland before, I don't think... hangovers, yes, not rabbits
jaycee: No, it was incredibly slow
Newbie: We will do a few changes into it later; a separate small refreshed window for the replies.
murph: The interface is pretty fast here. IRC is easier though for real time
jaycee: Who did the programming?
jaycee: someone in Sweden?
Newbie: The reason why we did the web version was that art crowd is too ignorant about irc
Newbie: The programming was done by
jaycee: I thought the art crowd is ignorant of everything?
Newbie: couple of friends at Spray Interactive, Stockholm
murph: Very few artists know about IRC
jaycee: my 18-year-old cat, named Yokono, is sitting at my feet mrowling for breakfast...
murph: Unless they just got out of College
jaycee: Artists in college? scandelous!
Newbie: Spray is doing mostly commercial web work, but have really nice people. Actually, Harald, project manager for Spray, was our tehnical coordinator. He is younger than your cat.
jaycee: Not surprising!
jaycee: good to exploit those younger than us as it is still possible ;)
murph: I like it when older artists (like me) get involved in all this. No one every asks them.
jaycee: very nice site/interface, though, congratulate them for me
Newbie: .... exploitation is not the thing, really.
murph: Young people are scary sometimes. Especially now.
murph: They know things.
jaycee: Knowledge without experience is a dangerous situation...
murph: The owl of Minerva takes flight at dusk
jaycee: whew, what was that?
murph: Technical knowledge can be dangerous
jaycee: definitely
murph: A quote from Hegel
jaycee: ah hah
murph: Not dangerous, useless
murph: If you have no experience.
jaycee: useless as an untethered cannon
murph: But experience without technical knowledge is also useless
murph: It's not so hard to keep up
murph: You need to find a reason to do it
jaycee: right. But experience can be communicated without the aid of technology, the reverse is not true
murph: So much "digital art" is just demo-ing the technology.
Newbie: I see your concern... sorry to tell you, but for instance Harald, 17 yrs, was extremely mature, experienced and full of ideas... So perhaps there are younger people who actually get past the medium to really concentrate on the content + infostructure...
jaycee: I may have to be teaching Director in the fall at CU Boulder
jaycee: Always exceptions to generalities
jaycee: pure slogging through knowledge...
Newbie: What is Cu + Copper Boulder?
murph: Young people in Europe seem to be more sophisticated than in the US
jaycee: Univ of Colorado Boulder...
murph: At least the one's I meet.
murph: We extend childhood here.
jaycee: given the difference inthe social situation between here and there, it's no wonder
murph: Makes excellent consumers.
jaycee: the facile aspects of childhood
jaycee: especially
murph: Children want everything
Newbie: yes murph, but there are exceptions, and extended reduction of the welfare state may change things here too soon
jaycee: In Iceland, children are allowed to be children for a long time
jaycee: but more in the true sense of childhood and innicence
jaycee: innocence
murph: Innocence isn't all it's cracked up to be.
jaycee: (spoken as an adult ;)
murph: But then neither is dogmatism
jaycee: I would call, through dialogue for the end of all ISM's
murph: What would the art critics do, then?
jaycee: (please add a second comma after dialogue...)
jaycee: the critics would be elevated to partners in the Dialogue surrounding art, or, really, people would simply engage. period.
jaycee: maybe I could say the critics would be lowered? (preent company excepted, Tapio...)
murph: The young people I meet involved in technology are so drab. They have very limited imaginations sometimes all defined by the technology.
Newbie: Would you call textual participation engagement?
jaycee: oh yes, certain textual participation is extended dialogue, definitely, (others not, though)
murph: Depends who is in control of the text.
murph: John controls the access in the dialogues
jaycee: But I am stepping back even from formalist end products at all -- back to the spaces and times where actual (using that word in the sense of primal) dialogue occurs
murph: You can only engage the whole dialogue, you can't insert yourself into it. A bit like television.
jaycee: well, I am an operator, but have not kicked or banned anybody so far... Right, it is defeintely a documentation, an end product, the actual cannot be "captured". period
murph: But then I don't think they would be as interesting if others could join in.
jaycee: It final form is only the reverberations in the skulls and souls of the two participants
jaycee: in final form, that is
murph: We are finding out what permission means. How you gain permission to join.
murph: Especially in MOOs. It can be just as brutal as in real life
murph: You have to earn the right to participate.
jaycee: Well, I guess for me it is an issue of attention and concentration -- how to maintain that single taut wire between two despite exterior environmental distractions
murph: Or you take control if you have the capability
jaycee: control in the case of the Eight Dialogues is a technological mediation issue... I think... not a personal issue, but maybe I am wrong about that
murph: The role of the editor, or facillitator wor whatever is being reconfigured.
Newbie: sorry, I have a guest and cannot attend right now, 20 mins. connection time left, back on tomorrow.... /Tapio
murph: Bye Tapio
jaycee: adios amigo! see you mañana
jaycee: see you in Stockholm...
jaycee: or so
murph: Well, I think I'll go get something to eat. I haven't had breakfast yet this morning.
murph: I didn't expect to be chatting.
jaycee: Yeah, all these issues come up when a dialogue is presented to the public...
jaycee: I didn't either....
jaycee: otherewise they do not appear
murph: Toasted bagel and cream cheese.
jaycee: them belly full and them angry
murph: huh?
jaycee: I want to try conducting a dialogue at a conference next -- any takers? Robbin? Tapio? in front of an audience...
murph: You experience the lag in communication. That what we perceive is already in the past and can get mixed up.
jaycee: Imagine at the CAA conference, what a scandal that would be
jaycee: Oh yes, that has affected all the dialogues to very specific degrees depending on the duration
Newbie: I am sorry, I would have loved to continue, but the boat is leaving, and it would stretch my legs too much, if I don´t make up my mind. So, bye friends, and see you tomorrow.
jaycee: ciao
murph: bye
murph: Well, I'm going to go get breakfast.
murph: See you Wednesday for your finale
jaycee: mee too... talk to you later... nice talking... see you in three weeks or so
jaycee: and next week...
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jaycee: cheers