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#net.sauna: bather [tee] @BALD antont @L16Bot
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*** Mode is +tn
bather: 15.00 and here things are sitting, two people in the sauna
bather: the door open
bather: and then what
bather: Terhi, if you can get CUSeeMe up, I am talking to people on that reflector... They are Finns wondering about us being in a sauna...
bather: Hallo Terhi
bather: are you there
bather: well, so now, I return from CUSeeMe
bather: Have you seen Mark Amerika around up there? or Luka?
bather: Nobody is talking to me at the moment
[tee]: john, you can invite people who are passing the sauna
bather: Well, it has been a costant stream of Press people this afternoon...
bather: so we have not had a chance to do anything except for the other CUSeeMe thing that just happened
bather: It was quite interesting, a woman, Anika who is teaching net communications in Vaasa
bather: so, we are really cooking down here now, four people and the door is closed
bather: quite open as a matter of fact...
bather: have you seen Mark at all?
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bather: welcome guest
fiMUGer: helloi
fiMUGer: hello
fiMUGer: brb
fiMUGer is away - FOOOOOOOOOD
bather: so quick
bather: and what else is happening
bather: +brb, that's an interesdting dialectic
*** fiMUGer is ircle@mac.sip.fi (i am an ircle user)
*** fiMUGer is on channels #net.sauna @#mac
*** on irc via server *.inet.fi ([irc1.inet.fi] Tele/Palvelumedia irc server)
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fiMUGer is back - Back after 1 minute, and 21 seconds.
fiMUGer: nyyh
fiMUGer: back
bather: and then how this goes, the dialectic space collapses into the singular dimension of one-ness, but remains pregnant in possibility
bather: okay
fiMUGer: hmm
fiMUGer: ...
bather: what's up fiMUGer?
fiMUGer: i am
bather: aokay.
bather: you are not using CUSeeMe, but I am sitting in a Sauna at this very moment
fiMUGer: yeah, sure :)
fiMUGer is away - FOOOOOOOOOD
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evts: hi folks, is this a sweaty place or what?
fiMUGer is back - Back after 4 minutes, and 19 seconds.
fiMUGer: hi all
evts: hi terhi
evts: this is steve bradley from baltimore
fiMUGer: terhi?
fiMUGer: errrr...
fiMUGer: isnt baltimore a prison?
fiMUGer: :P
evts: yes,
evts: a hot bed of criminals
evts: loose on the streets to do as they please
fiMUGer: cool
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*** Signoff: evts (Leaving)
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bather: Steve?
bather: Gees!
bather: Good timing!
bather: John here
bather: STEVE, sorry, I wasn't listening, we were being interviewed by some tv people from Barcelona
*netsaunaT* sorry to disturb you john, but this is terhi asking if i can stop your fech downloading. it's still going on and would like to work there or anyway i would have to shut it down to move my zip-drive in this other mac where i'm at the moment. There must
bather: Yes, you can cancel thAT..
*netsaunaT* be some extreamly big file coming when it takes this long time to download...
*netsaunaT* was that answer to me?
*netsaunaT* john?
bather: YES, THIS IS JOHN, GO AHEAD
bather: sorry for the capital letters, didn't mean to shout...
bather: ;)
*netsaunaT* ok, i wondered a little if you are on a bad mood... good to know you aren't :)
bather: no the key was stuck down, and there are many people coming by talking to us in the sauna, so I was distracted and didn't notice the caps on...
*** Signoff: netsaunaT (Ping timeout)
bather: Shit
bather: Terhi, Steve jumped in on the channel, and there was a bunch of press people so I missed him...
antont: ?
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evts: this is steve bradley
bather: Hey Steve
evts: hi
bather: I just missed you before
evts: who is the bather?
evts: yes
bather: Just had some things happening...
evts: I am geting ready to turn my grad students onto the net.sauna
bather: Press interviewing and people talking to us...
evts: is this ok?
bather: Sure!
bather: Tapio sends hugs
bather: Liisa and Terhi are upstairs
evts: hey great to receive the hugs
evts: i am looking for the interviewing...
bather: So, what a name, evts
bather: And so it goes.
evts: i tried to use steve but it was taken so i spelled it backwards
bather: man, there are 300 press here, 240 artists...
evts: without an extra 'e'
bather: we are outnumbered
evts: great
evts: yes but the intelligence is massive in the sauna
bather: but it has been intense here, VERY intense
evts: i need to go for about 10 mins to gather my students.
bather: Okay, I will be here, and can answer questions
evts: tell me about the intensity when i return
evts: great
bather: You can bring up the web site, although that is really not happening (yet) to give an idea...
evts: will do
bather: and the ars site, maqybe, too
bather: I'll writew the URLs to copy paste while you go find folks...
bather: www.aec.at (ars, then go to fleshfactor and open-X areas. we are near the end of the open-X areas...
bather: and muu.autono.net/sauna is our site... but there is not too much there...
bather: >I suppose my eight dialogues site might be interesting
*** atrowbri (-atrowbri@umbc8.umbc.edu) has joined channel #net.sauna
bather: members.iex.net/(tilde here, I can't find it on the damn german keyboard)hopkins.eight.eight.html
*** CTCP PING 873903649 from atrowbri replied
bather: So, I will just hang until you get back. We are also on CUSeeME reflector 193.166.120.3
bather: Terhi, did you start a log?
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bather: Steve is going to collect his class
bather: the wooden bench is serious torture on my back here...
BALD steps into the sauna
[tee]: hi bald this is terhi
bather: it's hot in here now. ..
BALD runs away and jumps into the lake *splattto*
BALD: hello
bather: I don't see any cold water anywhere
bather: maybe BALD brings beer, too
BALD: there's plentyover here (coming from the sky)
atrowbri: logout
*** Signoff: atrowbri (I'm outta here!)
bather: laterdude
*** Signoff: netsaunaT (Ping timeout)
bather: I reall wish I was bathing at the moment
bather: jes sittin'here waiting.
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bather: Steve`?
atrowbri: Steve Bradley's is here now. Hello.
bather: Changed yer name, huh?
*** CTCP PING 873904124 from atrowbri replied
bather: Atrophe
atrowbri: Using a student account.
bather: I see, graft and corruption...
bather: What do you reward them with in exchange...
bather: did you further up in the log, I posted the URL's for some pertinent things...
bather: for you to cut and paste
bather: Okay. It's quiet in the sauna now, Tapio left and closed the door, before it was swarming with people, mostly press, which is a whole wierd thing...
bather: But, now, through the glass door, people wander by peering in with quizzical looks
bather: there is a 9500 tower in the corner where the stove should go, but since we have a hot, bright Light on in the corner, it really gets sweaty despite...
bather: so, yup....
*** CTCP PING 873904507 from atrowbri replied
evts: hi we are now in my office. this is steve, scott, carrie, chris sitting in a small room with a loud fan blowing above our heads
bather: greetings all
evts: hi
bather: just had a visit from an Australian writer...
bather: writing about the Techno musik scene here around the Festival
evts: who's the austrailian writer?
bather: as I said, press out numbers the artists 1.5:1
bather: I only know here first name, Joney
bather: An intimate saun^Ea ...?-
bather: whatever
atrowbri: hi steve, scott, carrie, chris...this is adam, deb, and julia.
bather: did you catch that we are also on the CUSeeMe reflector in Vaasa, Finland at 193.166.120.3
bather: so, a remote session also, good...
bather: the dialectics of remoteness
evts: on friday we will set up a video camera on friday
bather: okay, cool, so you will have CUSeeMe, check us out when you can, I know the hours are not great... as we are what, 6 hours ahead of you? what time is it there?
evts: will you be set up on friday with a reflecter?
bather: it's 520 here
bather: 1720
bather: we should be online on Friday, barring any tech failures or long parties the night before...
bather: but this is a good time to check in... SO we should be onlie then, definitely on IRC
bather: I do notice a significant delay in the connection here
evts: what is the weather like there...outside of the sauna?
evts: is johns hopkins there?
bather: oh, maybe 70F sunny, a few puffy clouds, no rain yet... Quite pleasant, and the techno climate is electric. Very interesting situation here, lots of people I already know, and actually, in two days, I have met perhaps 20 people with whom I have been communicating with online
bather: but now meeting in Flesh for the first time, a trip
atrowbri is away - Automatically set away. - messages will be saved.
bather: Helen Thorington just had a performance this afternoon, and we were all online at Pseudo Radio last night (You should be able to RA the archive of the program...)
evts: after we are finished here we'll check it out
bather: are you surfing the web stuff, then?
atrowbri: we're just bringing the web up now...
bather: I also was traveling/met Mark Amerika on the way here from Boulder, he and I will be doing some projects at CU next year, it appears, -- he is a novelist who has moved into hypertext (www.altx.com)
atrowbri: is there a section on the web for net.sauna?
*** CTCP PING 873905368 from atrowbri replied
BALD: yes
BALD: http://muu.autono.net/sauna/
bather: yeah, although the site is pretty minimal now... We will be documanting the dialogues that occur and providing a bit of contextualization for the project there...
BALD: well
bather: in a way, the project is not about a spin-off document or otherwise, it is more about networking and communications (based in dailogue)
BALD: hmm
BALD: wasn't the site supposed to move to the.. AE server?
bather: which is a time-based anti-medium that exists only in the moment of its speaking
bather: Uh, well, we have server space, but we haven't been organized about that part of it to do so...
bather: Probably will at the end of the week perhaps
bather: OKay, really swaeating in here now, the sun is slanting across from the upper floor windows and coming right in the door...
atrowbri: Why is there a "private" net sauna?
bather: An epic thing along the lines of STonehenge...
bather: I just haven't closed that window, it is from a previous event this afternoon+
bather: we are doing both "public" and "private" events
evts: where is this installation located? in what city a gallery ect? is it accessable to "walk-ins"?
atrowbri: How is this channel that much different from the irc channels that exist all the time?
bather: Linz, Austria, in a very modern working space called the Design Centrum, like a giant glass quonset hut... for meetings like this...
bather: We are in a space that is now being used as part "exhibition" and part symposuim...
bather: Well, the channel is not different at all
bather: the intent of the channel and the realization of what occurs on the channel can possibly be seen to be somewhat different from CHIT-CHAT
bather: We are creating a conceptual (and real, both in technical and spatial terms) space wherein people might establish what the writer Martin Buber termed "genuine Dialogue"
evts: is the population of the surronding Linz familiar w/ this technology on a day-to-day basis? I know from the context that we are participating (a university many are knowledgable about the net, however the city of baltimore has quite a range of economic classes.
*** Signoff: atrowbri (Dead Socket)
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bather: Well, Ars Electronica has a strong presence here (especially financialy)
bather: And there is an intellectual and visual presence in the city...
bather: Actually if you look across the whole culture in Austria, things are not so advanced, technologically
bather: For ex. in the PO here, often you see the clerks adding sums with a pencil and paper...
bather: But Austria has a strong tradition of repsect for an intellectual class who collectively are looked to as leaders in social development...
bather: The organization here is excellent, the tech support, the catering, and the artists here represent a very broad spectrum of international people
bather: of course, the funding is both commercial and state
evts: I think that central to the concept of a shared and genuine dialoge is the concept of a shared language. if participation or knowledge of this language is techonologically bound then we are excluding or fabricating an entirely seperate culture. inaccessable to many. in alot of ways i think participation isn't voluntary.
bather: I was somewhat apprehensive that the situation would be too controlled, too formalized, too oppressive, but I have been pleasantly surprised...
evts: in what ways?
bather: Well, voluntary, hmm, you always need to contextualize things... of course, those who participate are not coerced
bather: and yes, a certain fragment is more likely to participate than others
bather: fragment of the international culture that is
evts: no, they are not coereced but only those who have access can participate. thats participation based on privledge not choice.
bather: we have chosen to use one of the lowest common denominators in technology, that of IRC...
bather: but we also face the problem that not so many people even WANT to talk with another!
bather: serious and attentive dialogue is not the norm to begin with... it is an abbberation in modern culture...
bather: It is what one does with the life one is offered that makes a difference, so, priviledge is a relative term against which all can be measured...
bather: I don't see that setting up the conditions for genuine dialogue need be restricted to some arbitrary standard of technical advancement...
bather: telephone, for example, where does one draw the technological line... in the US people have phones, but in other places they do not, does that elimenate the phone as a tool for non-elite communications?
bather: I think worrying about non-particiapation is to see the cup as half-empty rather than half-full
evts: also for example, we can talk about language. is english a universal language? or a priveldged language?
bather: we must use what we have. and, truely, the principles of dialogue are to be applied to all situations one faces in life, so dealing with each person is no more oor less important that dealing with another
bather: neither
bather: english is one form of a primal mediation between peoples
bather: probably the first mediation based in intellect after simple physical touching and gesturing...
bather: language is a more powerful and mediating factor than simple technological tools
bather: in fact, language is the FIRST technological tool (based on systematic thought)
atrowbri: and yet we sit and talk to each other on the computer all day and not even talk to the person sitting next to us or the person we meet on the street
bather: For me priviledge and lack thereof is not the question (easy for me to say, you might respond), but more what you do with what you have... and how you treat whomever you might come into contact with
evts: you are amking certain concession to communicate to me via the web. thank you for using english.
bather: exactly, that is one of the issues that the concept of genuine dialogue brings up. There can be NO descrimnation whatsoever, one must speak equally to any and all who cross ones path
evts: so are we suggesting that english is going to be the universal language?
bather: Well, no concessions, just doing as needed... again, using the tools one has available
bather: If I speak ten languages, and refuse to speak to another who is speaking one of them, and not speaking in my native t?ngue, then I have sinned against that Other
bather: UNiversal? huh? use whatcha got...
*** Mode change "+o [tee]" on #net.sauna by L16Bot
bather: English will not be used or understood by everyone on the globe for good and obvious reasons
bather: so that is only a rhetorical question...
bather: coputerlanguage is not based in English (for example), but on a self-contained system of logic that parallels traditional languages...
bather: computer, that is
*** BALD has set the topic on channel #net.sauna to http://muu.autono.net/sauna/
bather: I would say that language is a tool with many facets (as each sub-language attests),
evts: thank you for the dialogue, genuine or otherwise, we "steve's" class have to close this session. we will look for you on friday morning.
bather: So where we take it and what we do with it is only limited by our minds and imaginations
*** Signoff: atrowbri (I'm outta here!)
bather: okay, see you friday...!
bather: Steve?
bather: Sorry, more people cam ein to make evening plans...
bather: it is quite the event here... embarassingly extravagent, but we have had quite a few people come through and express positive reactions to the accessibility of what we are doing...
bather: compared to the techno-toys (thin on concept, one-liners) and such, ours is thin on the objectified presence, but rich in actualization
bather: Okay, I'm off here for the moment, sweating like a pig... and tonight a 5-hour cruise on the Danube with indian techno bands... and fattening food.
BALD: but also liquids and gases - within everyday architectural spaces into "interfaces" between
BALD: people and digital information.
BALD: oops :)
*** Signoff: evts (Ping timeout)
***#kuva: jaycee
hemmo tapmak
*** #kuva :End of /NAMES list.
tapmak:
hei hei
*** Mode is +
hemmo: hei vaan
jaycee: hei hei
*** hemmo is +ircle@194.136.192.47 (ircle user)
*** hemmo is on channels #kuva
*** on irc via server irc.funet.fi (Finnish University
and Research Network (FUNET))
*** hemmo has been idle for 19 seconds
*** hemmo :End of /WHOIS list.
tapmak: Terhi could not make it?
hemmo: so, what are your latest news
jaycee: She must be at that party and unable to escape
tapmak: extremely work full day. We still haven't worked
that text out, need to do it tonight thourgh.
hemmo: I have something to add. Is there a possibility
to make some sessions.
hemmo: I mean in Linz.
jaycee: sessions?
jaycee: as in?
tapmak: Just for info, Liisa, here is some text about
the framework at ARS EL. What do you mean by sessions?
tapmak: Dear Tapio Makela,
tapmak: the Ars Electronica Festival in Linz (date:
8th - 13th September) is currently in preparation.
tapmak: In this framework we are preparing an *open-plan
office* for net-artists under the title *openX*. 50 net-artists will present
their projects, work here, make RLcontacts with other netizens etc. OpenX
will be an exhibition-space and a a working-space in the same time during
the whole Festival-week.
tapmak: A rough outline about your plans here in Linz,
some informations about the technical equipment you might need ASAP would
be a great help for our festival organisation ;-)
tapmak: I wrote to her (Christa) :Yes, I am generally
interested in coming over with 2-3 more people
tapmak: presenting web projects. I will contact a few
people and discuss it over
tapmak: with them during the weekend and I think we
can have a text together by
tapmak: Monday or Tuesday. Would this be soon enough?
tapmak: Christa:
tapmak: Monday should work.
tapmak: Also, I guess the practical arrangements such
as would Ars Electronica
tapmak: cover flights and accomodation would be good
to know since with this time
tapmak: schedule it is too late to apply for travel
grants from Finland.
tapmak: For 3 or max.4 people ( you included) I guess
we can afford this.
tapmak: SORRY!!!!
tapmak: that was text that you can look at later
tapmak: Yes Lisa, tell more about your idea of sessions.
hemmo: So that they could
hemmo: I mean by them having meetings online
jaycee: irc and CUSeeMe?
hemmo: yes
jaycee: I think that would be a necessary part of the
work...
tapmak: we had thought to do that, yes.
hemmo: Terhi and I were thinking that some channels
on the topic could be started before September, probably during Muu10 festival.
hemmo: so that we could get material ready for the final
thing
jaycee: WHen is the MUU10 festival?
hemmo: it starts around the 9th of August
hemmo: I mean the first exhibition starts then
tapmak: august 13 onwardss
hemmo: If we are having for example Kekkonen as a subject
matter, it should be useful to gather some material and experience about him
as a topic
jaycee: Okay, yes, preparation is extremely important
(as well as getting good info about a stable server to base our work from...
tapmak: I think that the Sauna should not be started
before Ars Electronica. That is a concsious media strategy. Maybe some discussions
on some themes that could continue within the Net Sauna, but at Muu 10 we
are working under "Digital Drive In".
hemmo: I think preparation is needed for being able
to import contents, facts about either Kekkonen or a sauna as a political
areena
hemmo: Have you Tapio told John about my idea as thinking
that somebody thinks Kekkonen has never existed
hemmo: or secret sexual strategies in sauna?
tapmak: I agree about Kekkonen, but sauna as a political
areena can be worked out on theoretical and personal levels. We don't necessarily
need so much info for that. Yes Lisa, I told John.
jaycee: yes, I heard a bit of that, but not much
jaycee: not enough to get a handle of it..
jaycee: personal spaces and interactions within a context
always include the political and sexual subset, right?
tapmak: absolutely
hemmo: I think when sauna is regarded as being something
beyond sexuality, it is like irc in a way
jaycee: yes, a rather asexual environment actually
tapmak: On a pc level yes, but honestly, not. But the
"pure" sauna is not sexual,, practice is different. Also irc has an ethical
code which in practice, breaks very often.
jaycee: or where a sexual protocol is present that dominates
any alternate thinking...?
hemmo: one has to argue his or her opinions by using
the written speech, intelligence not by the looks or physical presence, warmth
and tension
tapmak: goes for irc, not sauna
hemmo: when sauna is seen as an asexual place, like
the political space
jaycee: There are definite parallels though of the IRC
space and a sauna space
hemmo: and their is our point
tapmak: sauna is about physical presence very much,
I think. I agree also that there are parallels.
hemmo: our channel is like an imaginary sauna where
people can talk about politics and pretending to be asexual
tapmak: *tapio adds more steam*
jaycee: Well, IRC is about presence within absence...
Presence is a concept that transcends physicality...
hemmo: do you think if sauna is an open place or is
it closed, compare that with irc
hemmo: is the access easy, do you have a view outside
etc?
tapmak: he/she evaporation
tapmak: there are public and private saunas, like ircs
hemmo: Can people have a view outside when inside the
sauna
jaycee: presence is an aspect of the exchange of energies
between people, regardless of mediation...
jaycee: Isn't the core issue the connection between
the participants, though? with a serious examination of the effects of the
"mediation" of the sauna space and the irc space?
tapmak: In my parents sauna they have a window out...
//yes, the core is the connection between the participants.
hemmo: and how can people get into the sauna, or deliver
a message - through the window which is normally steamed
hemmo: one brings the message by knocking on the door,
but how can we do the knocking in irc
tapmak: I think we should not get too much caught up
on the exactness of these analogues, just use it as a rhetorical starting
point for the dialogues and points of view. But since it is our metaphor,
it is good to study and think through it well.
hemmo: for tapio: I agree
jaycee: The window is an issue of the choice of modeling
limits -- to we look at the situation that the sauna is embedded in (social,
physical) as well as the situation that the IRC is embedded in (technological
politics and economy, etc)
jaycee: knocking on IRC == buying a computer...
jaycee: ?
hemmo: knocking on irc means that somebody tries to
bring the message
hemmo: or bringing an idea into our political discussion
hemmo: what about Kekkonen and the guy who thinks he
never existed?
jaycee: oh, I thought you meant just the concept of
getting access to the IRC medium..
jaycee: I can't speak for Kekkonen at all... I hardly
know the history of that...
hemmo: Yeah, and kekkonen might be problematic for other
people too - can we join there some other political characters
jaycee: I prefer not even naming politicians -- that
only makes them more known...! but...
jaycee: anyway... where are you Liisa?
jaycee: at home?
hemmo: But Kekkonen is dead
hemmo: and I have an idea that somebody joining the
irc thinks he never existed
hemmo: there could be other characters we can question
tapmak: I think the body/warmth/closeness/ -- sexual
political/apersonal/ linked with buddy code, where women were forced often
to take on a butch identity in politics //sauna to be able to be in the "old
men's discussions with Kekkonen style people...
tapmak: is interesting, but actually, not so interesting
for the contemporary irc and media. Unless we regard technological dialogue
space in relation to techno-buddy-code; could be something.
hemmo: but i think then a woman takes a role of a political
spokesman she stops being a woman with a body
hemmo: I am at Muu John
tapmak:
hemmo: in sauna space, or in general?
tapmak: side remark: we should really be face to face
with this sauna/irc analogue, or 1. go to sauna 2. do an irc.
hemmo: in sauna especially. I think that personally
I can find it as hard to go to sauna with women as with men
jaycee: I think that is a generally true statement in
most social spaces (although by the statement, mostly political)...
tapmak: 2nd side remark: we should concentrate on one
question. What would be our main point to Ars Electronica for bringing this
steamy concept set in.
tapmak:
hemmo: yes, I have the same feeling
tapmak: These are items that we can fill in with content,
but the description should be sentences.
jaycee: I guess in a certain way, the importance of
the sauna is foreign to me (as it has to be), so please ignore remarks from
me that are insensitive... (tell me)
tapmak: Net Sauna: *Theory Sauna * Dialogue Baths
* Media Cool Showers * Virtual Vihta Whippings
hemmo: we could have a channel which is a kind of virtual
or imaginary sauna where we have political discussion which is disturbed by
the sexual maniac??
hemmo: I do not get the point with vihtas
jaycee: someone playing a maniac, or a real one?
hemmo: probably playing - one who invades the discussion
in making sexuality politics or something
hemmo: making sexuality a political statement or politics
turning into sexuality
tapmak: I would like to think about this through a mind
that knows nothing of the sauna through a bodily experience.
jaycee: you mean, by sexuality politics, like social
gender issues or personal "attraction" issues... or just people taking advantage
of what are considered "traditional" gender relationships?
jaycee: Well, I know nothing of the sauna from the Finnish
social/cultural/political view, for sure...
jaycee: though I have done saunas since I was young
when available...
jaycee: Like, what is our understanding of the Roman
bath culture?
hemmo: sexual politics do not have to be considered
which is used to be, but it correlates about the Finnish social rules of having
no sexual life there
hemmo: John, I think you have also experience about
Finnish sauna - being there as a foreigner
jaycee: I think sex in a sauna can be dangerous anyway,
right? It is so hot anyway... Is there a social desire for the sauna to be
a sexual experience here?
hemmo: people believe in this country that it is beyond
sexuality
jaycee: Yeah, the protocol issue is very real, very
dominant, especially for a foreigner...
tapmak: I have many sexual memories from private saunas
- don't you? Not that I would want to share them with anyone in a public discussion.
jaycee: that's strange, but the Lutherian experience
is one very much beyond the body in general...
hemmo: I do not think we have to refer Luther
hemmo: necessarily
hemmo: my point is that sauna is a clean place beyond
the sexuality
jaycee: Well, not to refer, but just to recognize that
tradition had a big impact on the way people have sincve dealt with body issues..
hemmo: and men go there together for doing politics
tapmak: In protestant ideology, only wedded couple in
a bedroom is status quo, but most people do not ofcourse believe this...
hemmo: I disagree; only social saunas with family and
friends are that.
jaycee: It is the same body politics that forms the
core of the ultra-right in the US
hemmo: but sauna is mostly a family thing
hemmo: if you have a family
hemmo: or I am probably to bourgeaous
jaycee: so there are family issues which are the most
complex to explore relating to the sauna tradition...
tapmak: But this is going, at the moment, I think into
unnecessary depths of the "real sauna," since we can invent a virtual one.
(Sauna, like sex, can be family thing or then not)
hemmo: and happy to go to sauna with boys who have it
difficult then
jaycee: Well, some of us foreigners were wondering about
the historical economics of saunas anyway
hemmo: our virtual sauna could be a discussion forum
for politics, the sexual maniac disturbing it can only be one thing
jaycee: Constructing what will be a combination of personal
(us in Linz) and virtual space needs to focus on the quality of the interactions
that happen in the spaces..
jaycee: How does one introduce dialectic intensity in
a space?
hemmo: among the others
hemmo: or he or she doesn't have to be a maniac, just
bringing bodily things into political matters
tapmak: We should do good thinking and writing into
these sauna experiences. I agree about politics, sexual maniac disturbing
- - why? I mean in terms of the important discussions that we will carry on
then in the project.
hemmo: this "häirikkö" who disturbs the political
discussion goes back to my idea of sauna as an asexual place
hemmo: and politics are meant to be asexual - just think
about Riitta Uosukainen's private life
jaycee: Why, as in why are we doing this? -- I would
hope to offer participants the opportunity to have a quality interaction through
a mediating technology...
tapmak: mmm... yes, bringing the sexual into the political
at crucial moments, yes.
tapmak: Net Sauna is an intimate space for discussing
the politics of net culture. It incorporates soft warm bodies in a dialogic
space, connected with steam and Internet. Whippings for the curious ones,
cool media showers for the overheated freaks.
hemmo: what you mean as quality Tapio?
tapmak: ---John
jaycee: Politics should be asexual? or They want us
to believe that it is? or that is actually is?
jaycee: Quality as a measure of connection or lack of
connection with the Other/Others who are sharing the space...
tapmak: Political Dressing room is a very interesting
thought too; putting on an outfit. Ties that bind...
jaycee: Quality as a simple sharing of energy... versus
a taking, an occupation, an entertainment...
hemmo: I prefer the term Digital Sauna instead of Net
Sauna - but - when you are dressing yourself into politics but in sauna you
are naked, that's quite crucial
jaycee: The naked self (no technology there!)
hemmo: actually you have no cover, but you have to fill
the space by talking politics
tapmak: Politics on a mainstream media level are usually
very "neutrally" covered, there is a cool surface layer. I would like to get
rid of the digital;; even digital drive in is not good, it only sounds good.
jaycee: The only mediation is the protocol of talk,
and of steam and seating arrangements...
tapmak: In irc, text is your only garment.
jaycee: and language the only mediation (same as in
any dialogue)
hemmo: what about net sauna talk?
hemmo: actually, net sauna starts to sound good
jaycee: There will be the trouble of communicating the
essence of the sauna-as-social-phenomena, or do you want to even do that to
the participants? Is that an issue?
jaycee: A Finnish sauna is one of those things "you
had to be there," or something that you really can't imagine before doing...
although other cultures have parallel things...
hemmo: I think sauna as a virtual environment that we
create - making the heat, having the steam and then knocking the window from
outside etc - dressing, undressing
tapmak: I think we need to exercise that social phenomenon
in our net sauna. That can be an image for everyone of what the physical sauna
could be about, not the other way around.
hemmo: but we as Finns can tell what it is
jaycee: Okay, then we can model the experience with
various stages of interaction, leading to the actual sauna interaction...
tapmak: PAUSE:
hemmo: the actual sauna interaction??
tapmak: PAUSE:
tapmak: what do you think about this text:
tapmak: Net Sauna is an intimate space for discussing
the politics of net culture. It incorporates soft warm bodies in a dialogic
space, connected with steam and Internet. Whippings for the curious ones,
cool media showers for the overheated freaks are available. This communication
based net project is done by John Hopkins, Tapio Mäkelä, Terhi Penttilä
and Liisa Vähäkylä, all members of the Artist Association Muu,
Helsinki.
jaycee:
hemmo: right, of course...
tapmak: (I am trying to push this since: chilli cook
out should start now and Kati will arrive on a 22.40 train to Kemi.
hemmo: are we discussing the politics of net culture.
I think we are talking about the politics where the parallel with sauna comes
apparent.
jaycee: politics of net culture? how about politics
of culture...
jaycee: oh, never mnind, I see what you are saying..
tapmak: Net Sauna is an intimate space for dialogue
on the net.
tapmak: over the net?
tapmak: or: Net Sauna is an intimate space for dialogue.
jaycee: of dialogue on the net
hemmo: over the net
jaycee: yeah, over the net is okay
hemmo: I think we still have lots of things to do, but
I prefer email
tapmak: Net Sauna is an intimate space for dialogue.It
incorporates soft warm bodies in a dialogic space, connected with steam and
Internet.
jaycee: It is filled with... (let's use the present
tense rather that future...?)
tapmak: filled with replaces...?
jaycee: replaces incorporates...
jaycee: like somebody reporting what they saw when they
looked in... It's filled with...
tapmak:
hemmo: yes, I prefer a meeting too after the summer.
The initial text that goes to ARS is not so much. that can be done, and must
be done, now. What we will do takes a lot of dialogue.
jaycee: I LIKE dialogue!
tapmak: It is filled with soft warm bodies... sounds good.
jaycee: bodies who connect through the steam and the
network...
tapmak: me too, but I like CHILLI TOO.
jaycee: Liisa, you can visit my project doc called Eight
Dialogues at http://members.iex.net/®hopkins/eight/eight.html I did at MIT
this spring... it covers some of my ideas and background when you get a chance...
tapmak: good.
hemmo: I can come to Tornio on 21st of June at 7.30pm
and join the part, then we can make plans the day after and I can take the
night train back to Helsinki for being here on monday morning. I agree with
the text anyway - but I mean we have to have real
jaycee: Oh, good, you should come up... have a sauna!
real...? what
tapmak: you mean for 1 hour?
tapmak: aaah, the day after. cool
hemmo: Where can I stay there?
jaycee: ouch, that URL it should be ~hopkins
hemmo: I'll check it John
tapmak: welcome! I will reserve the sauna for us, if you like. You
can crash at somebodys room on an extra mattress.
hemmo: Chilli waiting?
jaycee: yes. chili!
tapmak: maybe we could sit in a cold sauna and write on powerbooks.
Yes, chilli is not chilly, I hope.
jaycee: and lentil soup
hemmo: I am tired of last night party too
jaycee: and rice
hemmo: but I'll email both of you tomorrow.
jaycee: my powerbook is f**ked, so I just sit
jaycee: okay!
tapmak: Net Sauna is an intimate space for dialogue. It is filled
with soft warm bodies who connect through the steam and the network.
Whippings for the curious ones, cool media showers for the overheated
freaks are available. This communication based net project is done
by John Hopkins, Tapio Mäkelä, Terhi Penttilä and Liisa
Vähäkylä, all members of the Artist Association Muu,
Helsinki.
tapmak: will travel over mail to AEC?
hemmo: fine
tapmak: johnnie....?
jaycee: uh, let's talk about it a bit over dinner? Just
a little on the english form...
jaycee: but otherwise fine...
tapmak: uh oh uh oh, yes.
tapmak: goodnigh Liisa!
hemmo: good night
tapmak: t
jaycee: okay, good talking with Liisa! bye
hemmo: you too. Have a nice time there.
*** Signoff: tapmak (boing boing)
jaycee: cheers
*** Signoff: hemmo (Leaving)
***#kuva: jaycee liisa tapppio Terhi
*** #KUVA :End of /NAMES list.
*** Mode is +
*** tapppio (-tapmakki@194.215.96.201) has joined channel #kuva
jaycee: I see, numba one?
tapppio: hey hey john - where are you now?
jaycee: Terhi and I have been fixing the machines upstairs, and I have your keys
tapppio: I just woke up... gosh. Oh dear John, that's forbidden from you!
jaycee: there they are
tapppio: thanks, ars ex machina.
jaycee: I know, but addictive, and nobody seems elsewise to do it RIGHT!
jaycee: ars longa vita breva
tapppio: hmm.... hmm... hmm... LEFT!
jaycee: I haven't eaten either, but am feeling better than this morning
jaycee: Uber alles
jaycee: stretching neck muscles...
tapppio: . . . several machines have had copied system files from the hard drive?
jaycee: never did get calling VR for a reservation...
tapppio: Have you seen Steven?
jaycee: Oh, shit things were a mess up there, but we are just formatting from zero (sometimes only with apple disk initializer, but...
jaycee: no I ain't seen 'im inna coons age
tapppio: ... sounds funny: calling VR for a reservation. Call Jesus instead
jaycee: Oh Lord, let there be a bed on the satturday nite train ta New Helsinki
tapppio: actually, those copied ones were found here. Actually, the deal was that OWEN was today formatting 3 machines in the other building, then to guide a student to take over the format and copy task
tapppio: Buy a Mercedes
jaycee: Well, the students do n't have a clue... I seem 'em plugging and upnplugging SCSI things with machines on... (and leaving dirty dishes everywhere...
tapppio: you mean Owen's students?
jaycee: anyway
tapppio: or fennoise
jaycee: anyway, I will take over the business of technical liason for Net Sauna as much as possible...
jaycee: Yes, owens...
jaycee: No, the finns are tidy and helpful...
tapppio: grr grr grr grr grr: time for a whipping
tapppio: whipped cream
jaycee: I have a letter to Christa started about tech specs for our computing section...
jaycee: vihta!
jaycee: Need a sauna tonite, I methinks
*** liisa (+ircle@194.136.192.47) has joined channel #kuva
jaycee: hallo Liisa!
jaycee: got your bags packed yet?
tapppio: hallo ho, Liisa!
liisa: hello, how is Tornio
jaycee: cool and ...
tapppio: Cool, solstice hangover, darkish
jaycee: let's heat it up, okay?
liisa: i have good news: i just talked to guy who designs saunas and he was very interested
jaycee: where's that vihta...
tapppio: the one winning sauna?
jaycee: great!
tapppio: whippeee
liisa: His name is Esa Vapaavuori
tapppio: Esa FreeMountain
liisa: I am not sure he is exactly the same guy you mean Tapio but I made an appointment with him then I come back from London
jaycee: So, we now have an intensive project on our hands, wow!
liisa: He has got several models: one is round, but there are different ways to make the kind of environment
liisa: which reminds sauna I mean
tapppio: bien, Terhi is trying to get on-line, JOHN:where are you, which class - any more functioning connections there for Terhi?
tapppio: terhi walks to a new machine
liisa: i shouldn't say waiting
jaycee: I am next door, Terhi does not have a machine upstairs, but I think she will be coming down after a short while... Her head is spinning that we have seven machines each in one step of repair
jaycee: shit happens, Terhi says, she is almost online...
tapppio: Liisa, I did not have any time today to call about Parasite, hope to do it tomorrow.
jaycee: Parasite is?
liisa: Then you should also contact Risto Nieminen - the head of Helsinki arts festival
liisa: Parasite is part of the digital drive in and Muu10 festival
jaycee: Oh, right, got it
liisa: and the people organising Helsinki arts got very very interested about it
jaycee: Our agenda this evening should cover what points?
jaycee: The physical sauna
jaycee: Basic appearance of US
jaycee: and the web site
liisa: i would like to hear first what are your latest ideas - if you have been working on it
jaycee: and tech details?
jaycee: I have been in a fog for since you left, Liisa, so I am not exploding with ideas, although Terhi and I have talked some...
*** Terhi (-hester@194.215.96.215) has joined channel #KUVA
jaycee: like having towel material as the website background texture...
liisa: Hello Terhi
Terhi: Finally I'm here..
tapppio: midsummer post mortem momentum
Terhi: Hi you
tapppio: hei
liisa: i was thinking if we can have towels with the print "net sauna" and they could be the same size as keyboard covers
tapppio: desktop image: birch leaves
Terhi: Same size as keyboars?
jaycee: yes, that would be nice, towels I think are a good and easy item to have about
Terhi: Doesn't cover much?
liisa: we could also wear them and have behind our necks
tapppio: watch out for those keyboars in the forest...
liisa: you know some sort of beer towels kept in the bar
jaycee: also the idea of the long robes they have at spas -- to wear around...?
liisa: keyboard i said
tapppio: good idea with the towels
liisa: what about masks - like a gas mask or a wig for different characters
Terhi: I have shon Tapio and John my scetch of real sauna towels to wear
jaycee: what about some good finnish beer?
liisa: what is real sauna towel like Terhi?
tapppio: gas masks are unfortunately ultimately uncomfortable. Good Finnish beer as sponsoring, lapin kulta, of course.
jaycee: kiipis
Terhi: Bigger size that keyboard size. For us to wear when beinig physically there
liisa: You should visit Lapin kulta when you are there
liisa: we should only keep those small towels behind our necks
Terhi: I was thinking about orange and turquoeish
jaycee: turquiose
jaycee: blue-green like the stone
tapppio: Lapin Kulta visit will be programmed tomorrow. Ville from here knows some sponsor contacts at Hartwall, the deals are done in Helsinki.
jaycee: turquoise
tapppio: I like turquise/organge, it makes me hot.
Terhi: behind neck is something from sport world...
liisa: does it matter Terhi
jaycee: Wheeling and dealing!
Terhi: a lot, metaphors are the most important!
liisa: Esaa freemountain named some sauna businesses which could sponsor us like Saunatech or Harvia
tapppio: Pasi Ruuska, tuotemerkkip??llikk?, Hartwall (product image chief) - - ask for marketing chief at Hartwall operator - Liisa, do you have the time for that there?
tapppio: Saunatech sounds a good name!
jaycee: WHat other essential objects go with a sauna?
jaycee: Technosauna
Terhi: I dont see any connections (so near ones) to sauna and politics with sport
jaycee: Oh, yes, our IP address!
liisa: but with Saunatech we should use their stove
jaycee: Isn't politics about boys playing sport with others' money and weapons?
liisa: i think the connection or the kind of use with the small towel size matches with computer environment
Terhi: sauna and politics are already quite far from each others for those who dont know about this finnish tradition, it's not good idea to bring something new as far.
liisa: i can ask my colleaques about Pasi Ruuska and if I have time tomorrow I can make a call if they say he is not a very difficult person
Terhi: Rather something that sticks sauna and politics better.
liisa: But towel sticks with sauna anyway
tapppio: I just wrote an e-mail to Paul asking for net.sauna from name.space and sauna.net from DNS.
Terhi: yes lisa
Terhi: my answer was about sport
jaycee: Yes, towel and sauna I think is essential somehow..
jaycee: with Paul, let's just make sure the thing is stable for September, okay?
liisa: we could sell our little sauna towels with net sauna print
Terhi: fine tapio, what about "owning" the name also otherways
jaycee: I suppose he would be insulted if we got a traditional domain?
liisa: but I wonder so far there we could have them printed
liisa: i mean towels
liisa: or probably some one should start sewing
tapppio: we=we=owners/// muu.autono.net is a traditional domain too. sauna.net will cost money too. What about a connection to Marimekko? Their boss is very fast to see succesfull projects.
Terhi: They are easy to sew
jaycee: Once we use the name net.sauna or netsauna in print (on the web) with the copyright sign, then it is legal...
jaycee: unless... someone else has it
jaycee: sewing?
liisa: yes we could have marimekko towels and then sew there a logo net sauna. I have friends working in Marimekko
jaycee: how about making a stencil and spraypainting the logo..
tapppio:
liisa: also maybe bath robes? Do you think they would go with a special edition, even?
Terhi: Why marimekko if they dont make towels ready?
jaycee: SO, let's settle on the color scheme -- orange and turquoise, okay?
jaycee: maybe we can prepare a photoshop swatch of those colors to begin with
tapppio: But... orange and turquoise, yes yes yes yeeeeessss.
liisa: it might be absolutely too late to get ready towels with the our print
Terhi: prepare a photoshop swatch????
liisa: orange is my favourite anyway
liisa: turquoise goes well with orange
Terhi: orange and turquoise so OK, decided!
jaycee: just an image in photoshop with the selected colors to share via email with the others
jaycee: done
tapppio: time is limited in many ways, I can settle with an orange overall and a turqouise towel.
jaycee: ideas for the appearance and logo?
jaycee: Oange overall, that's so unlike you, tapio
jaycee: orange..
liisa: marimekko designs make us rather modern instead of traditional
Terhi: I havent found any better ideas after glasses or mic or wearing towels
Terhi: I dont agree about Marimekkos modernity (totally...)
jaycee: Well, a sauna has modern and traditional aspects -- especially if we use that newly designed one...
jaycee: anyway...
tapppio: I think white towel surface, scanned, with an orange net.sauna printed on it with Courier is an ok starting point. Calling cards.. Frotee pyyhe in English?
jaycee: microphones (wireless) is definitely on the list...
liisa: Terhi Marimekko is one of the basic symbols of finnish modernity or argue???
jaycee: net sauna printed on a circular logo?
Terhi: I would like to see Net Sauna with our own, very post post post moderd design
jaycee: how post modern?
liisa: post modern would be better than Marimekko
liisa: name me what could be postmodern sauna design
jaycee: towels, microphone/headsets, terminals, sauna, beer, monitors, orange overalls, what else
tapppio: I also have second thoughts about Marimekko: it is modernity // seventies leftovers mostly. I would like to transgress Marimekko, since they are too Stereotypically Finnish, unless we want to underline that, which I don't think is a good idea.
tapppio: oval logo with net.sauna?
jaycee: oval is fine
Terhi: oval , courier all too traditional net stuff...
liisa: ovel with a little sharpening on top and down in the centre
liisa: Marimekko would need some transgression, I agree with Tapio
Terhi: I would like to find something better logo than just a text surrounded with some form...
jaycee: I can't speak about the positioning of all these things, so I just keep pushing the basic concepts, and let you folks deal with the finnishness
liisa: maybe the logot should have a little bit metal flavour
tapppio: Logo would include a soft textile texture underneath, blurring the sharp text?
jaycee: the text would follow the oval, right?
liisa: metal borders with the soft textile inside - but not too soft - sauna textiles are traditionally quite hard
Terhi: Hay, camoon! We are now losing time when talking about details of logo, we should rather talk about it's metaphors!!!
jaycee: use of the towel material with a metal texture in front?
jaycee: okay...
tapppio:
jaycee: I agree about microphone, computers, orange, towels combo as creating a surely postmodern sauna space.
Terhi: Meanings. What it brings in peoples minds. How they will remember it.
jaycee: they will remember the orange overalls and turquoise towels...
liisa: logo is quite important; from it we can go on to other features
jaycee: and the big fuckin sauna in the middle of the exhibition space...
liisa: i have orange and red overall
tapppio: Logo suggestions: a piece of soap with the net.sauna embossed?
liisa: hey we could have some foam there
tapppio: foa me!
liisa: fantasy foam
liisa: foam could bring new political ideas
Terhi: foam, steam, sounds better
tapppio: Soap smell, and MÄNTYSUOPA, hyväsuopa vai pahasuopa (Sorry John, I stop that right now!)
liisa: my friend (sini sopo) has a soap site in the net
jaycee: in short term though, meanings need to be separated between Finnish-specific metaphors and positioning and the audience which is rather different...
tapppio: I know sini too. . . what is the URL?
liisa: there is a link from Muu's artist section I think
jaycee: Yes, soap smells, vihta smells (which are impossible to make without a vihta, right?
Terhi: ofcourse we have to try to find metafors which are multicultural
jaycee: what about wetness?
jaycee: like moisture content...
liisa: wet hair
jaycee: yes, wet hair, sweaty, oily bodies, too
Terhi: wetness, soap, foam, steam, AND mic... wet hair BUT not oily bodies
jaycee: we need a body oil that smells of vihta!
liisa: i look like a baby in my orange and red overall
liisa: body oil that smell vihta is a good idea
Terhi: there is a sauna parfum, we can use that in sauna, but not have oiled bodies
liisa: my overall has got long sleeves
jaycee: aren't there any other object that go with the sauna?
jaycee: steve says buckets and the ladle?
liisa: oily bodies are nice only when they are tanned - i am never
tapppio: overalls will be so cute that we will be wolfes aliased as sheep; people will surely come to us. (oil underneath the overall is a personal option... keeps the body soft, like lotion.
tapppio: ROUGH BRUSHES
jaycee: (oiled bodies only from the skin oil that comes when one sweats...
tapppio: the sauna scoop
liisa: is it so easy to speak about our apperance rather than contents
jaycee: showers?
tapppio: appearance talk is warming up the space in our current net.sauna discussion. The stove is not ready yet for water, hold on Liisa, we will soon have some steam (=metaphor for content).
liisa: vateja - sorry missing the word for JOhn, help me
tapppio: buckets= ämpäri, vati=bowl ?
jaycee: contents will be about situations for communications and how they are translated to different cultural stereotypes. ANd then the subjects of the communications..
liisa: steam is a good metaphor for content - and we are actually getting hotter
Terhi:
liisa: I haven't seen this talk about appearence so easy. For it is still so that we havent found yet anything else really good thing than colours. With contents we are much further...
jaycee: so the form of the communications and the contents (both metaphoric and direct)
liisa: actually sauna speak is easy
jaycee: Filling the air with warmth and wetness
liisa: because it is a bit laid down
tapppio: yes, steam is a context that you cannot objectify, but it fills the space with pleasure, with too much rapid movement in the space, air streams will burn the skin. SKIN=SENSOR
Terhi: I agree Tapio, good sensor
jaycee: skin is a critical interface in the sauna both with the environment and with the Other..
liisa: what about skin and intimacy
jaycee: and the way the heat stimulates an opening of the pores and a vulnerability..
tapppio: Our appearance in Ars Electronica will be a blast: think about the black clothing, the coolness of appearances, the machinery and us: wood, cotton, color, juicy metaphors, inviting, beer on the front... the content, which also comes through ourselves being there talking as individuals with experience, thoughts and statements.....
jaycee: I think our dress if possible shows some skin -- at least arms!
jaycee: skin!
Terhi: How you would draw the steam? Give me some first images in your mind!
tapppio: SKIN///STEAM//SEAMS in overalls/SMELLS
liisa: what black clothing? Tapio
jaycee: The inviting phase will be critical -- inviting others in to this metaphor and play
jaycee: steam simply blurs vision... softens things
liisa: we will get sweaty anyway
tapppio: from tactical media to sensorial realms... You know the new yorker style cultural arty fartys that you see all over Europe
jaycee: anything seen through steam is soft lookng
jaycee: beer helps...
liisa: our web site could probably be soft looking
jaycee: those folks will take a lot of melting, so we have to be HOT
jaycee: and laugh ALOT
tapppio: steam is a filter, a communicative space, gives difference a field of vision but still availble for negotiation
liisa: blurred views outside - like windows and then a space for communication
Terhi: stem burns your skin in sauna -so, not so very softy thing!
tapppio: let's use some laughing gas mixed with water vapour
jaycee: and invite all our friends, both real and virtual?
jaycee: condensation of steam into water...
liisa: can we get laughing gas - would be too dangerous with me - i would laugh anyway
Terhi: we will give just a little portin for you Liisa.
jaycee: So, uptight metaphors are out...
liisa: are people laughing in sauna
tapppio: yes... you can buy it from Stockmans to do whipped cream for big parties
liisa: what uptight metaphors John
tapppio: I can ask Mathias Fuchs whether there is some in Vienna.
Terhi: what uptight metaphors John
jaycee: only humorous metaphors (think Beckett)
Terhi: humorous metaphors?
jaycee: the uptight metaphors that will fill the rest of the art space except our area!
liisa: i prefer humour everythere - we cannot bring new political ideas with the touch of humour and irony
*plicker* Hey , Goto : Http://www.intx.net/viper For An Awsome Page!!!!
Terhi: I agree Liisa, but still don't get what John does mean?
liisa: actually irc is the kind of animation - you create a world where it has to be some logic to be believable
tapppio: break: I don't think there is an issue there in the uptight; only the fact that usually metaphors in art spaces are bloody boring, dry, cool, serious, not daring. We don't need that at all.
jaycee: well, just the usual shit that fills the art spaces of Germanic Europe!
jaycee: Has any of us been to ARS?
liisa: i do not think there is a risk of boring discussion with us
tapppio: That's a rather personal question, John.
liisa: i do not get the point - personal? being to ars?
jaycee: SO we have no idea of atmosphere, except surely we will know some of the other participants
tapppio: I have not been to the event, I know a lot about it and have seen 5 series of documentation, know about its background and its media museum orientation.
liisa: has any of the participants (i mean guest) said yes
tapppio: ArsE
Terhi: think about the black clothing, the coolness of appearances, the machinery and us: wood, cotton, color, juicy metaphors, inviting, beer on the front... the content, which also comes through ourselves being there talking as individuals with experience, thoughts and statements..... I'm still seeing this view BUT WITHOUT black color (so O&T)
jaycee: No, I think we will be the exception -- at least based upon my experience of some years in the Germanic art scene in Koln and some in Berlin
liisa: what about of being covered with smoke and dust
liisa: like cavemen
jaycee: that wouldn't go with the new modern designed sauna, would it?
tapppio: That is what I mean Terhi, we are an exception, that will be very easy to see in that space. We are overtly performative; others are too, but in restricted ways
jaycee: I agree about no black...
liisa: no black - that's decided
Terhi: I like that view Tapio
jaycee: (schwartz unter hosen nicht oder)
Terhi: I see us with our sauna in our turk&Or surroundings OK
jaycee: Okay. colors done
jaycee: How to invite others into our metaphoric play?
jaycee: here, sit here at this terminal... talk to me...
liisa: maybe some of the visitors do not know it
Terhi: send e-mails, give info on web site, print matherial for AE
tapppio: we need to have a web page that introduces the project, and a mailing to our friends.
jaycee: here, we must not be as animals, we MUST speak
liisa: or they are not aware of the rules
jaycee: So, an introduction to IRC
liisa: but we do have an informative web site
jaycee: intorduction to saunas
jaycee: introduction to finnish tradition of saunas
liisa: no - informative about the codes (then telling sauna language in a way)
Terhi: Most of all, Net Sauna eticett
jaycee: introduction to our metaphoric code
tapppio: metaphoric code - i like that
liisa: Terhi has got the point
jaycee: and yes, (rules) of sauna and net behavior
liisa: can we get code to sponsor us - it's made in Finland
liisa: i think the market for these soft alcholic drinks might be quite small in a beer lovers country
jaycee: introduction to fundamentals (as we see it) of communications (and dialogue)
liisa: people have sauna rules in their saunas
Terhi: Net Sauna ethicett is based on metaphoric codes, I would like so much to call it rules thougth...
liisa: you can buy sauna rules in the souvenier shops
Terhi: I would NOT
Terhi: tried to say...
liisa: do we have to look the same each of us - couldn't we represent the plurality against Kekkonen and other monopolies
jaycee: introduction to ??? already a big site... we will need to begin mapping the site..
Terhi: We don't have to look the same, but we should have something that makes we look like a team. Net Sauna team.
jaycee: true, liisa -- we are talking uniforms here, which can be de-humanizing
liisa: just have small net sauna etiquette there in a form of sauna rules like they hang in the sauna
liisa: those towels could make us a team
tapppio: I think each occupation of the sauna space sets different set of code; there is shared code, but no rules that cannot be negotiated.
Terhi: I wasn't talking uniforms!
liisa: i think this sauna is getting very noisy
tapppio: But... let's agree not to fart in there, ok?
Terhi: Is it Liisa.
liisa: in sauna people talk very peacefully (when not too drunk)
liisa: what about towels making a team - i repeat
Terhi: Sorry if I'm too noisy.
tapppio: Appearance, metahpors shared, including towels make the team, yes.
liisa: Terhi, remember the political lecture I once gave you
Terhi: I agree Liisa. Towels ok. But small towels is only a small case, nothing to do with the whole image.
liisa: we can have both big and small towels - lots of towels the whole sauna set
liisa: actually small towels are also needed under our bottoms
Terhi: We should not go in barbie homes before creating the barbie.
liisa: what has barbie to do with this, Terhi?
jaycee: I'm lost now...
liisa: sauna set - it is actually the kind of thing i Like - "net sauna set"
liisa: sauna set includes brushes, bowls and soap too
Terhi:
liisa: CREATING barbie aren't we at the moment creating something of our own.
liisa: i do not understand Terhi?
tapppio: Bar bees;; I also don't mind the net sauna set, but I think lighter metaphors, less corporate, are better. It is enough to have the towel, the beer, the colors, the mikes, the whole scene of us in that techno space. However, we should pay attention to ways in which we can make both our friends on-line and in that physical space feel good.
liisa: we should practically in a very good and relaxed mood - not arguing with anybody
tapppio: I think Liisa meant, creating the sauna wear before creating the contents for this project:: not true really, we have lots of content, the dialogues will light up the steam in the sauna space, provided that we are there, and we will.
jaycee: That will depend on how we engage and less on why we engage people, I think, well maybe even on both,
liisa: when somebody enters our chat with aggressive feelings he or she should be overheated out from the discussion (must need cool media showers instead)
jaycee: So the homur of making fun of political institutions and taking the space and time for some good warm dialogue
liisa: positive things engage people but not too sweet
jaycee: humor
jaycee: humor is a good and secret weapon when one needs it, but also a friend-maker
jaycee: Remember Buster Keaton?
tapppio: humour///vapour
liisa: secret weapons in sauna
tapppio: humour is a human vapour
Terhi:
tapppio: humour///vapour
liisa: what's happening next
Terhi:
tapppio: humour///vapour
liisa: secret weapons in sauna . Is important because nobody usually enters agressive, but get's when don't get understud. This is not an easy media for discussion.
tapppio: let's make a list of things we need to: a) graphically design b)scan c) write d) plan
jaycee: the greek humours were the four faces of peoples character -- and I think the sauna is very much about balancing those humours
Terhi: Good Tapio, let's go back to business.
liisa: we should deal some tasks that have to be done - because I think everybody has some idea of the framework
jaycee: Plan -- technical logistics, acquiring materials/sponsors, shipping, timing, schedules...
Terhi: I can visualize the image when I'm not so good on writing things.
liisa: i like writing
tapppio: I think Liisa is in the best geo position to continue with the sauna deal, and the beer deal, maybe even the ministry of foreign affairs attempt?
liisa: but i do leave for London this friday
tapppio: For how long Liisa?
jaycee: I can write and edit the english stuff...
liisa: and i think something has to be done sooner - i ll be there for 2 weeks
liisa: we have a quest
liisa: gues
liisa: guest
Terhi: ?
jaycee: and each of us needs to make a personal plan for mobilizing our net-friends -- this needs to have a "critical mass" for it to work... A thin presence will fall flat...
tapppio: john: dialogic intimacy
liisa: secret sexual strategies
Terhi: visuals+Kekkonen tapio:sauna as a political space/theory space
liisa: i just emailed Heath and defenitely I can find other people to be involded there
Terhi: OK Tapio
tapppio: Strategy steps: 1) GOOOOOD text 2) mailing to our friends;;; works instantly.
liisa: those things mean writing Tapio
tapppio: yes, writing
jaycee: yes, perhaps when we contact others, we could forward those people's names to the others so we have a pool of contacts to involve...
tapppio: I have my hands REAAALLLLLY full of organizing, I want to be in a text space for the whole of July, so please, no sponsor talks for me. Doing the arrangements for Parasite is enough for me...
Terhi: How far we can inform our friend about the project?
liisa: when I am in London, I am not sure about reading e-mail very constantly but calling my mobile is not more expensive for Tapio and Terhi
liisa: Do you think it's enough in the middle of July to approach sponsors - anyway, they are all having summer holiday
jaycee: I feel like I can't give enough support, being at such a distance (in ICeland), but I will be emailing my contacts in the next two weeks... to arrange some preparatory IRC sessions...
jaycee: Working backwards on the schedule -- how long does it take to ship soemthing from here to there?
liisa: I think John you can try to make contacts with your net friends and involve them
jaycee: two weeks under good situations?
liisa: to ship something?
jaycee: that brings us to mid-august already with shipping (the sauna)
jaycee: which is six weeks from now...
Terhi: What was the dades of AE. 8. september -- ?
Terhi: dates..
liisa: it's getting there dark in Helsinki
jaycee: The web site needs to be up with name.space or elsewhere by the beginning of AUgust
liisa: 8 until 13
tapppio: 1 truck or 1 train container basically;;;; 1 week, but we should ship it 2 weeks before, at least. We need to be there for the installation with everything else ready. SIX WEEKS, dear friends,, we need a helping hand. The Dada for Ars was September 13, if I remember right. It is in the first e-mail to you, I think.
jaycee: A domain name (regular) takes three weeks to get...
jaycee: dada
jaycee: mama
jaycee: Can you trust the tech side and stability of name.space, Tapio?
jaycee: I will if you do, but we don't want to get caught with pants down...
liisa: i think I can do lots of writing easily in London and prepare the humour side, but Tapio I am still wondering about these sponsoring things to be delayed - but they are on a holiday now anyway
Terhi: We must decide now if regular domain name... I feel like needing it. MUU server is not enough stable. Do you really think Paul would mind that?
jaycee: I will help Terhi on the visuals before I leave Tornio (Saturday night)
liisa: that's good John
jaycee: liisa, can your company give us server space once we have a domain? wouldn't need much, but..
tapppio:
jaycee: I already sent the mail to Paul requestin if he could do it for us, it is really fast, done within a day. 5 minutes with name.space. But we need both, since the court decision is not here yet; until then, there is no universal resolvability. Hence, we need also the traditional domain name but can market name.space by having it along.
liisa: our server is always full
liisa: i mean company server
liisa: we need another one there soon - but i do not know then it will be there
jaycee: right, well... do we need to get a commercial service then?
tapppio: We can have space surely from Ars Eletcronica Server, and Muu server, And Thing Vienna server, And Paul's server in NYC.
tapppio: the irc and CuSeMe reflector issues are much more critical; The thing vienna is setting up a real video server at the moment, they already have the audio.
tapppio: contact Mathias, John, please.
jaycee: five meg space will suffice, but good ftp access is required!
Terhi: ftp? for what?
jaycee: I am having a deja vu -- I know this conversation, I have had it already with you all... strange...
jaycee: ftp for getting things up on it easily...
Terhi: what I'm going to say next John?
tapppio:
liisa: Can you please make the necessary sponsoring calls tomorrow? tell them that we are also wanting to relax for the July but would like to make a deal about this now...
jaycee: But Mathias is not running the Thing, is he? WHat about Konrad?
tapppio: Mathias is not running it, but a good pal contact (not ntsc)
jaycee: silence (terhi)
jaycee: right Tapio...
liisa: sorry Tapio, I have hands full of work and a very difficult appointment with the client tomorrow morning - with the difficult client
tapppio: I think that was only jay cee vu
jaycee: okay. ANd the CUSeeMe I can get help from Ed Stasny of Otis who keeps one, and who has also Ars expereince
jaycee: hohoho
Terhi: Fine John with CuSee contacts and so, but Liisa, you are our only hope there in Helsinki with sponsors...
jaycee: irc servers are only an issue as far as good or bad connections across Austria and Germany cause problems...
liisa: But surely, Tapio I can try at least this Hartwall guy - but I leave those sauna companies for then I come from London
tapppio: frankly speaking, amigos, we need a helping hand from somebody for the sponsoring... I cannot stretch my organizing, I must write. After London, mid July, is too late for the initial contact. We need the initial contact NOW, the arrangements after "yes" can be done after London.
tapppio: Terhi?
Terhi: I think sauna companies peoples best season is at summer time, so the companies can't be so very closed.
jaycee: I feel like I can't help with the contacts, though, sorry...
Terhi: Me to contact sponsors?
tapppio: Or maybe we can contact a Swedish sauna company, called Helo. It is very dialogic, almost Hello.
Terhi: could you?
liisa: You could at least try the foreign affairs ministry Terhi?
Terhi: I would like to work, but I know from experience that I'm not good on arranging sponsors. All failed I've ever tried. Really.
jaycee: well... hmmm, maybe I can give moral support on contacts...
Terhi: Foraign ministry sounds a little bit easier... hmmm...
Terhi: But still is needed a good speaker.
liisa: i feel quite positive about getting sponsors for this kind of project - could be a bit different from many other ones
tapppio:
Terhi: ministry, your piece of cake.
liisa: just spend 3 hours on the issue, I think you can do it.
jaycee: my finnish would be a problem.
tapppio: jaycee, try icelandic.
jaycee: The three of us could meet once again before I leave on Saturday night, okay? at least for a short time? and make a physical map/list of things to be done...
tapppio:
liisa: 3 hours before London?
liisa: 3 hours is a lot tomorrow
jaycee: eg tala bara pina litith iskensku
liisa: but I try
liisa: for me to find another person to do and inform about the event and the project would take as long as the time
jaycee: og hetna manudagur kvoldidith eg er a islandi
tapppio:jaycee: det låter ganska bra men nåstan som polska, eller Litauan.
liisa: i think i have to go sleeping soon - this day was too hectic also
liisa: ... and meeting a client at 9am is never easy
tapppio:
liisa: I ageree. I will save the log as:
*** MakeK (~konttine@p205.service.vtt.fi) has joined channel #kuva
MakeK: moikka..
MakeK: ihme kanava .. ei yhtään oppia..?
jaycee: I got it too, and I think the logs are different -- Terhi was receiving things at very different times than me... hmmm
Terhi: sori make, meilla on meeting
MakeK: moi terhi.. tunnetaanko me?
MakeK: siis privat?
*** MakeK is ~konttine@p205.service.vtt.fi (myy.helbp.fi/~konttine/inde3.htm)
*** MakeK is on channels #KUVA @#valokuvaus #helsinki #Hesa
*** on irc via server ircd.eunet.fi (EUnet Finland)
*** MakeK :End of /WHOIS list.
MakeK: soorii..jos häiritsen..
*** MakeK is ~konttine@p205.service.vtt.fi (myy.helbp.fi/~konttine/inde3.htm)
*** MakeK is on channels #KUVA @#valokuvaus #helsinki #Hesa
*** on irc via server ircd.eunet.fi (EUnet Finland)
*** MakeK :End of /WHOIS list.
MakeK: m? l?hden... moido..
*** MakeK has left channel MakeK
jaycee: so, are we finished, my fellow finns?
liisa: still there?
tapppio: once the users list is clared, I will post a web address.
liisa: Make has left
jaycee: yes
tapppio: ok...
tapppio: http://www.muu.fi/polar/sauna/log2.html
tapppio: will be there in 40 seconds.
jaycee: okay... so, folks, good evening, liisa, have a wonderful time in London... I'll wave on my way to Iceland on Monday...
liisa: Terhi, you should contact Kassu
jaycee: I have to eat dinner
liisa: Thanks John and have you a nice time too
Terhi: So, will we have one meeting before Liisas and Johns leaving or..?
liisa: Kassu has some problems with Taava, Terhi
Terhi: OK Liisa, I'll.
jaycee: I can meet anytime before Saturday night...
liisa: has tapio disappeared
tapppio: sorry, it got scrambled. It is there, but the line breaks disappeared. Strange.
tapppio: hello?
jaycee: well, I have it here, too
jaycee: but I want to run, okay?
tapppio: I only copy pasted - do you have a proper log file? I want to run too.
jaycee: yes I do...
tapppio: e-mail it to me please
liisa: I am gonna leave now - call me, mail me - i'll do that then I have the news
jaycee: cheers liisa
Terhi: Ok Liisa, cheers
jaycee: okay goodnight all
Terhi: Bye all, I have log file too.
*** PART: Not enough parameters
***#kuva: jaycee dadaoho tm-tm-tm Terhi
*** #kuva :End of /NAMES list.
*** Mode is +tn
jaycee: Hei hei
Terhi: hi john, how are you
jaycee: Not so good... back to the hospital tomorrow
jaycee: strange life
jaycee: what's new in Tornio? You going hom esoon, too?
jaycee: slow connection, it seems. I am on the local Icelandic IRCnet server
jaycee: maybe I should switch to funet...
Terhi: strange my text didn't appear
Terhi: this chat.bt.net is quite a good too
Terhi: i'm using it now
Terhi: so you have been visiting hospital there in island
jaycee: yeah, my back has pretty much quit working
Terhi: your last mail sounded bad, you're having much troubles there now concerning your divorce as well as your back...
jaycee: I will probably have to quit the job in Colorado and stay here for surgery
Terhi: oh, that bad!
jaycee: It is really shit to be in such condition, and I am not in a good mental state at all
jaycee: Especially being here with my ex at HER house, and not having another place to go
*** tm-tm-tm (-tmaketm@194.215.96.201) has joined channel #kuva
tm-tm-tm: Hello you two!
tm-tm-tm: Sorry for being bit late, was going through the emare applications.
jaycee: hallo... and Loki is having trouble sleeping tonight, too
Terhi: Hi Tapio
jaycee: Terhi, you are outside the firewall, by your IP address, right?
Terhi: yes
Terhi: why u asked?
jaycee: I wish that stuff had been working when I was around...
jaycee: oh well
Terhi: Tapio's nick sounds nice with the voice i'm using :)
tm-tm-tm: Dear JayCee,
Terhi: Liisa is as if on #kuva irc.funet.fi but she says no one is theere. What could be thre problem`?
tm-tm-tm: töm töm töm
jaycee: So, the delay is not too bad now... I have a local ISP dial-up on this 288 modem... From this small fishing village...
jaycee: Maybe she mistyped kuva?
jaycee: I am on IRCnet...
tm-tm-tm: Can you describe what you see in the window?
Terhi: liisa should use ircd.funet.fi as u or chat.bt.net as me
jaycee: I just traced irc.funet.fi, and it is online
tm-tm-tm: TErhi really ircd.funet.fi???
tm-tm-tm: d?
jaycee: is chat.bt.net connected to IRCnet?
Terhi: ask liisa use ircd.funet.fi as u tapio are using or chat.bt.net what i'm using
jaycee: Tapio, I was telling Terhi that I will probably go back into the hospital tomorrow... I am not doing well at all...
Terhi: tapio> i checed you when u came:
Terhi:
*** tm-tm-tm (-tmaketm@194.215.96.201) has joined channel #kuva
Terhi:
*** tm-tm-tm is -tmaketm@194.215.96.201 (Tapio makela)
Terhi:
*** tm-tm-tm is on channels #KUVA
Terhi:
*** on irc via server *.fi ([ircd.funet.fi] Finnish University and Research Ne)
Terhi:
*** tm-tm-tm :End of /WHOIS list.
*** tm-tm-tm is -tmaketm@194.215.96.201 (Tapio makela)
*** tm-tm-tm is on channels #KUVA
*** on irc via server *.fi ([ircd.funet.fi] Finnish University and Research Ne)
*** tm-tm-tm :End of /WHOIS list.
*** jaycee is hopkins@ppp-3.est.is (John Hopkins)
*** jaycee is on channels #KUVA
*** on irc via server irc.isnet.is (ISnet, Iceland)
*** jaycee has been idle for 1 minutes and 11 seconds
*** jaycee :End of /WHOIS list.
Terhi: funet has those two main servers, sometimes d works better usually not
*** Terhi is tepa@194.215.97.229 (Terhi Penttil?
*** Terhi is on channels @#KUVA
*** on irc via server chat.bt.net ([194.73.82.246] BTnet IRC Server)
*** Terhi :End of /WHOIS list.
jaycee: who is BTnet? and where are they?
Terhi: if i remember right bt is in NY or in europe
jaycee: I can't trace your IP number, Terhi
Terhi: people in this school uses it because of firewall problem with funet
jaycee: strange
Terhi: how come u can't trace my ip??? i don't understud?
jaycee: When I use funet from here in Iceland, I get op status all the time (when creating a channel)
jaycee: when I trace, it says "no such server"
Terhi: john, normally funet works like that
Terhi: it's only in this tornio school where firewall has been put up that way that u don't have normal priviledges when connecting via funet
jaycee: Well, from the US I could never get op status...
Terhi: really, there must have been something that kind of firewalls as here in tornio
tm-tm-tm: Liisa still has trouble getting online. She is switching machines.
jaycee: and I have friends from other places who never get op status. Perhaps we should get some special communincation with funet for access during Ars?
tm-tm-tm: I am using a machine that is behind firewall. Could this prevent Liisa from joining?
Terhi: tapio, i don't believe
jaycee: talk to their sysadmin people and also find out our IP addresses in Linz...
Terhi: firewall can cause only that liisa can't be operator
Terhi: is liisa connecting from MUU or her home?
jaycee: Wait, Terhi, did you limit users on the channel?
Terhi: no i didn't
jaycee: number of users? that is?
Terhi: john, how to chek that?
jaycee: I never remember the commands, but I see the "n" switch is up, isn't that for number of users?
jaycee: can you op me?
*** Mode change "+o jaycee" on #KUVA by Terhi
Terhi: n is that people can't send messages from server i mean without coming in channel
tm-tm-tm: If one of the windows is not open, does the connection close? She gets to kuva but there is noone else...???
tm-tm-tm: Any tricks?
*** Mode change "-n" on #kuva by jaycee
tm-tm-tm: hokkus pokkus
Terhi: ask her use #KUVA big letters
Terhi: and chek she is really using IRCnet server
jaycee: also have her trace your (Tapio) IP address..
Terhi: did liisa took ircd.funet.fi
tm-tm-tm: she is using irc.funet.fi - - so am I
tm-tm-tm: now changing ircd.funet.fi...
jaycee: She can try irc.dd.chalmers.se 129.16.117.11 6667,6668 also
Terhi: no tapio you are using ircd.funet.fi
*** tm-tm-tm is -tmaketm@194.215.96.201 (Tapio makela)
*** tm-tm-tm is on channels #KUVA
*** on irc via server *.fi ([ircd.funet.fi] Finnish University and Research Ne)
*** tm-tm-tm :End of /WHOIS list.
tm-tm-tm: ??? On my inputline, it is irc.funet.fi for sure.
Terhi: tapio, this is strange
tm-tm-tm: She just cannot get in.... I will logout now...
jaycee: I'm leaving to check funet, okay?
Terhi: when i take "Who is" from you i get ircd.funet.fi
#KUVA: jaycee @Terhi
*** #kuva :End of /NAMES list.
*** Mode is +t
*** Teri (-PolarCirc@194.215.96.232) has joined channel #kuva
jaycee: funet won't let me on...
Terhi: i went with an other mac via irc.funet.fi and i'm here as Teri
*** tm-tm-tm (-tmaketm@194.215.96.201) has joined channel #kuva
*** Signoff: tm-tm-tm (Dead Socket)
Terhi: tapio, i'm in as teri. i connected via irc.funet.fi but "Who is" shows that it's via ircd.funet.fi.
jaycee: gees, this is a ridiculous medium, sometimes! Where is a cheap telephone?
Terhi: So, d must be alias
*** tm-tm-tm (-tmaketm@194.215.96.201) has joined channel #kuva
jaycee: or my old typewriter
tm-tm-tm: Are we on or is Terhi double?
jaycee: wanna op me again dear?
Terhi: liisa is calling me at the moment
*** Mode change "+o jaycee" on #KUVA by Terhi
jaycee: Terhi is splitting her personality
jaycee: thanks...
*** Mode change "+o tm-tm-tm" on #KUVA by Terhi
*** Mode change "+o Teri" on #KUVA by Terhi
jaycee: opping everybody!
tm-tm-tm: blood type changes
jaycee: anyway. Hmmm. I may need it...
jaycee: Anyway, I look out the window across the fjord, a Light fog forming, it is maybe 15C Loki is curled up at my feet -- he was having bad dreams -- probably because I was such a bastard today...
jaycee: I just took some painkillers, and was about to reach for that bottle of Finlandia, but if I am in the hospital tomorrow, I don't want them to think I am an alky
tm-tm-tm: hospital??? Did you get the message that our sauna contact had had a heart attack?
tm-tm-tm: Have you been drinking enough water, John?
tm-tm-tm: How is your back?
tm-tm-tm: I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I sticky heat here today
tm-tm-tm: I am talking to myself, mys-elf, mysig elf, cosy dwarf
jaycee: no I missed the heart at |
